Questioner: David
Subject: TrinityQuestion: Hello John,
Where is there explicit teaching of a trinity, God in three separate persons ? Can you give one Bible verse to help ?
Who according to the Bible is Jesus' Father ? Isn't it interesting how the Jews, who where God's own chosen people Never taught of a triune God, or a trinity of three separate persons for thousands of years ?
- david
John of AllFaith's reply
Hi David,Deut. 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one!
John 14:28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
Sounds pretty clear to me.
I'm not sure how deeply you want to go into this topic. Feel free to back if this reply does not suffice.
All religions are multi tiered constructs. Those who hold to fundamentalist beliefs as well as those who hold to more liberal ones and those seeking to "rediscover the truth" often fail to appreciate this. People can say, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it," but its never that clean cut!
The Trinity doctrine has been a foundation stone of the Christian Church since Emperor Constantine's priests re-defined and canonized Christianity as an independent religion distinct from Judaism:
The Nicene Creed, written in 325 C.E. (its English version dates from 1549) says, in part:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made human.
This pillar will not be easily removed.
Does the Bible teach that God (YHVH Elohym) is One and indivisible? Of course it does!
Does the Bible teach that Jesus is God incarnate... Of course it does!
Does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity? I think one would have a harder time with this one, but... yes it does.
You see David, the Bible consists of letters and words. Whether one accepts these to be the literally inspired Word of God or not, they are still words on a page that people read and debate.
When people read these words, like any others, they will not always walk away with the same understanding. For instance:
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John 10:16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."
What does this mean? There are a LOT of very different interpretations.
I can "prove" with this verse that Christians must convert into Judaism (Acts denies this of course). I can "prove" that Jesus came to America and taught the Native Americans (as the Mormons teach, I don't believe this). I can "prove" that Muslims would later be included into the fold -- or were even there first through Ishmael -- as the true holders of the Divine Truth (as many Muslims believe, again I don't believe this either) etc. etc..... So many teachings can be based on a few words, especially when other texts can cited as well!
Are there verses that seem to claim that Jesus was God incarnate? Sure, there are many:
Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the dominion (government) will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty El (God),
Everlasting Father, Governor of Shalom (Prince of Peace).
This verse flatly says the Messiah, Jesus, will be the Mighty God (El Gibbor) incarnate. But... could this mean something else?
According to Jews teaching long before the time of Jesus these verses have nothing to do with the Messiah (let alone with Jesus in particular), BUT when read with the understanding that this verse is about Jesus (we "know" he is the Messiah after all in hind-sight), its clear as can be. Jesus is El Gibbor, God incarnate.
Again,
Revelation 1:17. And when I saw Him [Jesus], I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.
Who is the First and the Last?
Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
If the God of Israel is the first and the last, and if Jesus is the first and the last... then... Jesus is God right? It logically seems so.
And again,
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John 14:6. Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7. "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know and have seen God."
8. Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
9. Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? Those who have seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
10. Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
11. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
"...you know and have seen God..." Sounds clear doesn't it?
John 10:30 "I [Jesus] and My Father are one."
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?"
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God."
"...being a Man, make Yourself God.." We may debate what Jesus meant by "I and the father are one," but it is obvious from the text what these Jews understood him to mean! "...being a Man, make Yourself God."
There are lots of scriptures one can cite to prove the divinity of Jesus:
John 12:45
John 14:7-10
John 16:15
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Every translation on earth that I know of, other than the Watchtower Society's New World Translation and the Byington Version, which they also publish, agrees that this is the best translation. "...the Word [Jesus] was God."
More Apostolic confirmations:
Rom 1:4>br>
Rom 9:5
Col 1:15
Col 2:9
I Tim 3:16
Heb 1:3
More scriptural confirmations:
Mat 3:17
Mat 17:5
- John 8:13. The Pharisees therefore said to Jesus, "You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true."
14. Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going.
15. You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.
16. And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
17. It is also written in your law that the testimony of two people is true.
18. I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me."
19. Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."
20. These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.
And again,
I John 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood -- Yeshua Messiah; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
9. If we receive the witness of people, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness which God has testified of the Son.
10. One who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; one who does not believe God has made a liar, because that one has not believed the testimony that God has given of the Son.
11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in the Son.
12. One who has the Son has life; one who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
More scriptural evidence:
John the Baptizer: John1:34
The works of Christ John 5:36
Statements of God: John 5:37
The testimony of the Hebrew Scriptures: John 5:39
Jesus Himself: John 8:14
The Holy Spirit: John 15:26
The Believers throughout the past 2000 years: John 15:27
Even the demons confirm Jesus' divinity!
James 2:19. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
Mark 1: 33. And the whole city was gathered together at the door.
34. Then Yeshua healed many who were sick with various diseases, and cast out many demons; and He did not allow the demons to speak, because they knew Him.
Matt 8:29. And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
Mark 1:24
Mark 3:11
Luke 4:41
Acts 19:15
Jesus is the King of kings and Lord of lords:
I Tim 6:13. I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Messiah Yeshua who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14. that you keep this commandment (or mitzvah) without spot, blameless until our Adonay Yehsua Messiah's (our Lord Jesus Christ's) appearing,
15. which He will manifest in His own time (or seasons), He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the Sovereign of reigners and Adonay of adoniym,
16. who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power.
Amen.
And again:
John 17:1-2: Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You.
Now, if Jesus is not fully God then he is in a very bad position!
Scripture clearly says again and again:
"I am YHVH, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images -- Isaiah 42:7-9:
And yet Jesus is even worshiped:
John 20:27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28. And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Adonay and my Elohim (My Lord and my God)!"
29. Yeshua said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Jesus is offered praise and glory which is due only to God. He even demanded that he is to be lifted up so that all peoples will come to him.
Who but God could make such claims!:
John 12:31. Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
33. This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
There is practically no end to such verses. Everything that Jesus said and did, everything that was said about him, according to our Bibles, testify of his Godhead and glory!
In this verse he clearly reveals that as Messiah he will "crush Satan" and gain dominion over the earth, as prophesied at Genesis 3:15. He would allow himself to be lifted up from the earth via his crucification, thereby allowing Satan and the powers of the Rebellion to "bruise his heel" as it were. The result of this would be the crushing of Satan and restoration of all things (I Cor. 15:20-28).
Mark 15:38 Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
39. So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
And there is much more could be noted....
Now... does this literal understanding of these scriptures mean that Jesus is God, the same person as the HaShem of Israel?
One must decide this for him/herself.
I could list evidence just as solid to demonstrate the opposite, that he was a holy prophet and not God.
The truth is, Emperor Constantine, a life long worshiper of the Roman sun god Sol Invictus, created a Universal ("Catholic") religion that he hoped all the subjects of Rome would accept and rally around whether they were Pagan, Jewish, Nazarene (followers of Y'Shua) or what have you and made this religion the only legal one within the empire. Those who followed all other religions were subject to the death penalty. To this end, Iraneus determined the Christian canon of scripture, in other words, he decided what would be in our Bibles and what would not be by determining the New Testament's content. This Universal ("Catholic") Religion is fundamentally different, in many key points, with the likely teachings of Rebe Y'shua bin Miriam (our teacher Jesus, son of Mary). NONETHELESS this New Religion, with various alterations such as those of the Protestant Reformation etc. continues to be the largest and most influential religion on earth. This will change within a few years if trends continue as Islam is near to replacing Christianity both in numbers and relevance.
Can the Book this Church passed down to us be shown to teach its doctrines? Absolutely, quite easily. Are these teachings truth?
John 18:38 Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, "I find no fault in Him [Jesus] at all.
Write back any time,
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~John of AllFaith
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